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Monday, 23 November 2009

Comments

Goffredo

So...has the Catholic Church changed its stance on the death penalty? If it has not, there are a lot of conservatives getting the Eucharist on Sunday who are definitely NOT in Jesus' camp.

Jim

I'm going to disagree with you Goffredo, because I'm not going to let you slander and misrepresent Christ. The death penalty is established in Old Testament law as a tool and a power endowed with government as a protection to the people. The death penalty values life, by demanding justice of those who do not (murderers).

You might recall, that Christ was very much in favor of and submissive to the authority granted to governments from God (both universally in His sovereignty, as well as directly in the Old Testament). Christ came not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. He loved the wisdom of God's law and the institutions so ordained. Even aside from all the biblical support throughout both Testaments for the rightness of government's role in this, you can also look beyond Christ's words on the subject (He is the Word of God, so both Old and New Testament are His) to his actions. He submitted to the death penalty Himself, and His sacrifice is was the ultimate justice.

As for abortion, it is not an action of justice, like a properly executed death penalty should be. Unless you find a way for an unborn child to kill someone else while still in the womb, there likely is no just reason for that child to be killed. The reason then becomes (generally) the convenience of the mother or father. They just don't want to deal with the sacrifice needed to take care of a child. So they say kill it.

I know there is a big debate over whether there are certain times when abortion is acceptable or certain reasons (safety of the mother, rape, etc). I think for the comparison of abortion to the death penalty it's unnecessary to get into those aspects, though I would be more than willing to discuss it in a further conversation. Clearly though, there are many distinctions between abortion generally and the government's use of the death penalty. In fact, Exodus commands the death penalty for abortion!

There are plenty of unworthy people taking the sacrament (all of us in fact, but by God's grace). But being anti-abortion and pro-death penalty is not what makes them that way.

Goffredo

So wouldn't Newt Gingrich be denied the Eucharist and be excommunicated for his adulterous affair? Wouldn't those who waged war against Iraq without jus a bellum be guilty of murder, thus taking innocent life? I guess I need to have all of the rules in place so I can understand this crazed ideology. It's okay for gay Catholic priests to fondle little boys but it's not okay to BE gay and want to be married. It's okay to have an affair if you say that you're sorry and won't do it again. But then again, Catholic priests have been fondling little boys since the 5th century. In fact, it was normal for them to have young male sex slaves

And why would Kennedy be denied the Eucharist for supporting a law that merely allows for an abortion? Does anyone truly support the act of abortion? I mean, would a woman get pregnant JUST to have an abortion? Do you neoconned have that little faith in human kind? I'm not FOR abortion but I'm for having a safe way to have one because kids simply are not going to stop having sex (as much as the religious right believes they eventually will).

If we're talking about new and old testaments, why all the judgment? Isn't there something in the Bible about judging others? But maybe Jersey Girl was right --- "Cafeteria Catholics" is what they call it.

Katie

Jim:

The problem most people have with Bishop Tobin's clearly politically motivated stunt is that the Roman Catholic Church has come out against the death penalty again, and again, and again. Yet prominent American Catholics such as Antonin Scalia, who wears his Catholicism on his sleeve and cites his religion as one reason he will vote against abortion, also says he has absolutely no problem with upholding the death penalty.

Yet practicing Roman Catholics don't get to do that. The Pope, and only the Pope, interprets the canon. If bishops are going to start telling politicians and other prominent Catholics they can't take communion because they refuse to impose their theology on others, even if they don't practice it themselves (Patrick Kennedy has clearly never had, and never intends to have, an abortion), then what possible justification is there for not denying communion to Scalia? That can only means it's a political stunt.

You can argue all you want that the death penalty is more justifiable than abortion; it doesn't matter. According to the Pope, neither are allowed. As such, Roman Catholics are not allowed to participate in, or support, either. Patrick Kennedy is no more of an apostate than Antonin Scalia.

Tommy De Seno

Katie check the Catholic Encyclopedia on the Death Penalty. I believe you are misstating the Catholic position if you merely say the church is opposed to it. That's not the case.

Acai Berry

i think the church should decide for its self... and i think concerning the church, the bible has the final decision and not man

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