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Wednesday, 02 September 2009

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Goffredo

Treaty of Tripoli, 1797, authored by U.S. Senate, signed by President John Adams:

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

As soon as you list the text where it says that America is a "Christian nation", I will list the contributions of Muslim-Americans.

Please do not confuse God with religions; the Creator is well-above the concept of religion.

When you grasp the difference between spirituality and religion, you are one step closer to the soul of our forefathers. Or, since you are usually pressed for time, read up on the period of Enlightenment.

But then again, facts are a pain in the ass for you and the Fox lemmings. "Homocide bomber?" LOL...what a good Fox boy you are.

Bobbie

why wait for the him to list the text -- post them anyway

Jim

John Adams -
“The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity…I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and the attributes of God.”
[June 28, 1813; Letter to Thomas Jefferson]

"I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen."
[December 25, 1813 letter to Thomas Jefferson]

George Washington -
“What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ.”
[speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs May 12, 1779]

“O Most Glorious God, in Jesus Christ, my merciful and loving Father; I acknowledge and confess my guilt in the weak and imperfect performance of the duties of this day. I have called on Thee for pardon and forgiveness of my sins, but so coldly and carelessly that my prayers are become my sin, and they stand in need of pardon.”
“ I have sinned against heaven and before Thee in thought, word, and deed. I have contemned Thy majesty and holy laws. I have likewise sinned by omitting what I ought to have done and committing what I ought not. I have rebelled against the light, despising Thy mercies and judgment, and broken my vows and promise. I have neglected the better things. My iniquities are multiplied and my sins are very great. I confess them, O Lord, with shame and sorrow, detestation and loathing and desire to be vile in my own eyes as I have rendered myself vile in Thine. I humbly beseech Thee to be merciful to me in the free pardon of my sins for the sake of Thy dear Son and only Savior Jesus Christ who came to call not the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Thou gavest Thy Son to die for me.”

"Make me to know what is acceptable in Thy sight, and therein to delight, open the eyes of my understanding, and help me thoroughly to examine myself concerning my knowledge, faith, and repentance, increase my faith, and direct me to the true object, Jesus Christ the Way, the Truth, and the Life, ..."
[from a 24 page authentic handwritten manuscript book dated April 21-23, 1752]


I could list more from guys Benjamin Rush, Noah Webster, Patrick Henry, Samuel Adams, Alexis de Tocqueville, and lots of others if you'd like me to, Goffredo. But I'm curious if you can find two Muslims that did as much as George or John first.

And I don't want to fill up the whole comment page, which would be easy to do with Christian founders quotes...

Goffredo

Gosh, those quotes are fabulous opinions and insights. Too bad they're not in the Constitution or in any government document that would lead to a conclusion that our nation was FOUNDED upon the RELIGION of Christianity.

Christian principles of prudence, justice, restraint, faith, charity, love, tolerance and service are fundamental in many religions. Those virtues are not exclusive to Christianity in the least. Sadly, the religious right of today exhibit none of those virtues above but yet claim to be "Christian". Ironic...or hypocritical?

Nonetheless, good work, Chap.

"Question with boldness the existence of God. I do not believe any of the Christian doctrines. The greatest enemies of Jesus [are the doctrines and creeds of the church].
--- Thomas Jefferson

Tommy De Seno

Goffredo you missed the most important one - Free Will. It's the central tenet of Christianity, and not by coincidence but rather design it happens to be the central principle of American Freedom.

That's why it is correct to say America was founded upon Christian values (as opposed to calling her a "Christian Nation").

Islam, on the other hand, is completely inimical to the concept of Free Will. Infidels are not to be persuaded, rather killed.

Just look at the Muslim Nations and see the lack of civil rights.

Obama was wrong to suggest that Islam is woven into the Fabric of America. It isn't. Christianity is.

That doesn't exclude Muslim from taking part in America's future, but Muslim can not take credit for her past.

Goffredo

Who said anything about Muslim-Americans taking credit for the founding of our nation? Huh?

Are you saying that Christianity promotes "free will" and that this concept is the core of American democracy? What about France, Italy, Germany, England, Spain, Austria, Switzerland, Sweden, Finland, Norway, Denmark? They are full of citizens who are utilizing free will on a daily basis.

Wow...wonder why the Crusades and Spanish Inquisition were necessary if "free will" was so Christian? Maybe people back then painted their horses with the logo, "Freedom ain't free"?

Are you making this up as you go? Christianity in the European Enlightenment movement is akin to Dick Cheney and the Constitution: they are enemies. During this period of time most learned men and prominent philosophers were focused on returning to classicism in the Greco-Roman sense; that is to say, BEFORE Christianity.

You need to go back to Bacon, Locke, Rousseau and Montesquieu (position on slavery obviously immoral) and the anti-torture/persecution/rule of law theories they posited. America was not founded upon Christianity. If you want to say it was founded upon Christian principles, I guess I can accept that as long as it is noted that those virtues are not exclusive to Christianity.

Too often U.S. history starts with people throwing tea in the Boston Harbor. But who are we kidding? 24% of Fox viewers when polled did not know that Medicare was a government-run insurance program.

Have to keep the bar low...

Tommy De Seno

Goffredo,

It is Obama who is having Muslims take credit for the founding of America, with his insistence that it is "woven into the fabric of our country."

Of course it isn't. Free will, a Christian ideal, is woven into the fabric of America. Islam has no Free Will element.

Not sure why you brought up the other European countries. No one argued Free Will was exclusive to America, so what's your point? The other countries that you mention, where free will is exercised, are certainly using the Christian principle too. Good for them. Muslim countries don't have it. You and Obama are going to have to live with that fact.

For a guy who complains others mistake organize religion with spirituality, you certainly do so here. The Crusades? Not exactly the work of Jesus. That was men of the church.

Not that there was anything wrong with the Crusades. The Muslims took the Holy Land by force. Did they expect no response? When the "religion of peace" then ordered the destruction of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, well, they deserve what they got after that.

It was also 1,000 years ago, so maybe its time to lose the Crusades from your left-wing talking points. Join the rest of us in modernity.

As for Christian influence of the Enlightenment figures you cite:

Bacon: Studied at The College of The Holy And Undivided Trinity.

Locke: Raised a Puritan and studied at Christ Church.

Rousseau: A Calvanist who converted to Catholicism. Raised by a priest from age 15. Attended a seminary.

Montesquieu: A Catholic who attended the Catholic College at Juilly.

The enlightenment thinkers were all Christian and influenced by their Christianity. The American forefathers were influenced by them.

That is why Christianity, the Enlightenment and America share the most important basic tenet - Free Will.

No where do we find any mention of Islam or its anti-free will concepts in any of them.

Yet you and Obama will casually and blithely revise history and claim Islam is "woven into the fabric of America" while saying Christianity is not.

If you ignore facts, you must be a liberal.

Goffredo

ANYone who received an education, up until approximately 1750, attended a Christian school of some sort.

And I keep asking you, where did Obama mention that Muslim-Americans contributed to the founding of America?

Woven into the fabric of our society?
Yes. Rap artists, athletes, authors, religious leaders...I'd say that constitutes "woven into the fabric of our society".

250 years ago? Obama did not say that; you did.

I hate to insist on facts and evidence but this is not the run-up to the Iraq war where "truthiness" can form a conclusion.

On Locke, you left this part out:

Locke exercised a profound influence on political philosophy, in particular on modern liberalism. Michael Zuckert has in fact argued that Locke launched liberalism by tempering Hobbesian absolutism and clearly separating the realms of Church and State. He had a strong influence on Voltaire who called him "le sage Locke". His arguments concerning liberty and the social contract later influenced the written works of Alexander Hamilton, James Madison, Thomas Jefferson, and other Founding Fathers of the United States. In fact, several passages from the Second Treatise are reproduced verbatim in the Declaration of Independence, most notably the reference to a "long train of abuses." Such was Locke's influence, Thomas Jefferson wrote; "Bacon, Locke and Newton..I consider them as the three greatest men that have ever lived, without any exception, and as having laid the foundation of those superstructures which have been raised in the Physical and Moral sciences".[5][6] Today, most contemporary libertarians claim Locke as an influence.

Rousseau, as many if not all, was converted to Catholicism forcefully as well, as only attending a seminary for a brief 2 years, again not by choice.

Montesquieu receive a law degree from the University of Bourdeaux, again slipped by you. He was also arguably the greatest philosophers of liberalism. In either of his 2 famous works, God is mentioned so briefly that it takes up no more than 1 paragraph. Montesquieu viewed it a grave error to base civil laws on religion.

Tommy De Seno

Goffredo "liberalism" 250 years ago did not mean "American left." Don't confuse the two. In fact they are philosophical opposites.

Liberalism then meant less government, which is what American Conservatism is today.

If that's your belief system, you are in the wrong party my friend.

You haven't conceded that there were no Islamic influences in the enlightenment, but its time for you to do that.

You may as well concede the point about Christian influence of it, since you agree they were all Christians.

By the way Christians believe in government and church being different. We invented that here in America, remember?

Obama saying "the catalog of Muslim contributions to America are long" was his insinuation that they go back into our history.

Remember I'm a lawyer too, so I know the little tricks this guy tries to pull with his words.

Let me hear it from you - you don't think there was any influence from Islam in America's founding, do you? He hasn't fooled you in that regard, has he?

Goffredo

Of course there was no Islamic influence in the founding of America! Who would argue against that?

Italian-Americans had nothing to do with the founding of America. Dare I say, Tommy, that they are NOT woven into the fabric of America? (waits for Tommy to hurl his Chicken Parmesan at me). As are Irish-Americans, Native-Americans, African-Americans...

You are of the same breed that when told "we should have never invaded Iraq", your response was, "So, I guess you want Osama bin Laden in the White House?"

The right seems to suffer from selective listening, or no listening at all. You hear what you want to hear, Tommy. That's no secret. You're deaf to evidence and truth like your heroes Rush, Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity.

LOL...American conservatism is for less government? You're kidding, right? Illegal wiretapping American citizens, taking over states' National Guard, torture, suspension of habeas corpus, 50% of Bush's cabinet invested in military industrial complexes that profited from Iraq war, 800 billion dollars lost in Iraq... if that's what you mean by less government, then you should spending more time with someone who lived under Nazi rule in Germany.

The American conservative has in fact returned to his/her original form: pro-government control monarchy---one religion, one language, one dress code, spying on fellow citizens ("who cares if you ain't got nothin' to hide?"), changing the Constitution to a religious law (thanks Mike Huckabee) where gays are executed and slavery still exists. You guys are the ones who would rat out the American revolutionaries to the Brits. Bravery at its finest.

The influence of Christianity is a slippery one. As I mentioned earlier, the principles upon which our Constitution was written are Christian. As well as Buddhist. Pagan. Hindu. Epicureanism. I repeat: they are not exclusive to Christianity. But to say that the American Christian resembles that of a 1750 Christian...not sure you want to go there, "you betcha".

We invented separation from church and state? Tommy, are you rewriting history like Mitt Romney does?
I thought Jersey had good schools?

Muslim-American

Historical evidence suggests that there were Muslims within the original, native, Ameri-Indian community and that the first group of immigrant Muslims reached the Americas in 1312 (180 years before Columbus). From Mali and other parts of West Africa, Muslim explorers arrived via the Gulf of Mexico for exploration of the American interior, using the Mississippi River as their access route. Abubakri was one of the first to set sail to America from Africa (according to "˜Muslims in America' by Amir Nashid Ali Muhammad).

In 1492 when Columbus arrived here, he was strongly influenced by the writings of 13th century Arab geographer Al-Idrissi, who served as an advisor to King Roger of Sicily. Columbus arrived with Al-Idrissi's book and Muslim captains, crews, and translators. He had two Muslim captains: Martin Alonso Pinzon and his brother Vicente Yanex Pinzon. The Pinzon family was related to Abuzayan Muhammad III, the Moroccan Sultan of Marinid dynasty (1196-1465) (ibid).

Columbus himself admitted in his papers that while his ship was sailing near Gibara on the northeast coast of Cuba, he saw a mosque on top of a beautiful mountain. Ruins of mosques and minarets with inscriptions of Qur'anic verses have been discovered in Cuba, Mexico, Texas, and Nevada. A historian, Dr. Berry Fell, in his books "˜America, BC' ("˜BC' representing "˜before Columbus') and "˜Saga America! ,' provided evidence of early presence of Muslims in America.

The Muslim country of Morocco was the first to recognize and acknowledge America's independence in 1777. Morocco was the first nation to sign a peace treaty in 1786 with America, followed by Algeria in 1795, Tripoli in 1796, Tunis in 1797, and Muscat (Oman) in 1833. All the earliest signatories were Muslim countries. During 1788 to 1789, President George Washington exchanged letters with the Sultan Mohammad III about peace and! asked the Sultan to plead with authorities in Tunis and Tripoli to obtain the right of free navigation for American ships in the Mediterranean. In this way, American ships entered the sea with the support of Muslims.

There are hundreds of examples of contributions of Muslim immigrants to building the nation in all spheres of American life; here are just a few:

The United States Cavalry hired a Muslim by the name of Hajj Ali to experiment with breeding and raising camels in the deserts of Arizona. Hajj Ali came from Syria in the mid 1850's, and in 1868 he went to work prospecting and scouting for the government. He was given the quaint, American nickname 'Hi Jolly' as he became a local folk hero in Quartzsite, AZ, where he died in 1902. His tombstone is a stone pyramid with a camel on top of it (according to "˜Muslims in America' by Amir Nashid Ali Muhammad).

An African immigrant Muslim, Muhammad Ali Ben Said (1833-18820), joined the 55th Regiment of Massachusetts Colored Volunteers. Serving in Company 1, Muhammad rose from corporal to sergeant by July 16, 1863 (ibid).

In 1875, the wave of Muslim immigrants started coming; the first small group came from Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, and Punjab (Pakistan and India). Some of the Syrian-Lebanese Arabs settled on lower Washington Street and in Brooklyn across the East River around Atlantic Avenue and South Brooklyn (ibid).

The agricultural lands of America were cultivated and raised by African slaves; the original religion of most of them was Islam. African American Muslims were among the major working force in building America.

Muhammad Ali, a boxer, is one of the most famous and world-recognized personalities of the twentieth century. Three times World Heavyweight Champion, Muhammad Ali increased the prestige of America. Other Muslim boxers --Saad Muhammad, Eddie Mustafa, Dwight Braxton (Muhammad Qawi Ali), for examples"” have magnified the name and fame of America.

Kareem Abdul Jabbar, a member of basketball Hall-of Fame, is one of the greatest basketball players of all times. Other famous Muslim basketball players are Jamal Wilkes, Walt Hazzard, Charlie Scott (Shaheed abdul Aleem), Spencer Haywood, Hakeem Olajuwoon, Mahmoud Abdul Rauf, Shareef Abdur Rahim, Larry Johnson, TariqAbdul Wahad, and Craig Hodges. Other examples of outstanding athletes among Muslims include Ahmad Rashad, former receiver for the Minnesota Vikings and now a national sportscaster; Abdus-Salam, a former tackle for the New York Jets; Raghib (Rocket) Ismail, a receiver for L.A. Raiders; Salaam, a running back for Chicago Bears; Karim Abdul Jabbar of the Miami Dolphins; Efram Salaam of the Atlanta Falcons; and Mustapha Muhammad of the Colts.

Abdul Hakeem Muhammad, a computer scientist with the IRS, won the "Department of the Army Commander's Award for Civilian Service" for his work in the field of computers open system standards and technical architectural environment. This is one of the highest, most rare, and unusual Congressional awards won by an IRS employee.

Dr. Fazlur Rahman, Khan, a Bangladeshi Muslim immigrant, and outstanding architect, designed Chicago's John Hancock Center in 1970, the One Shell Plaza in Houston in 1971, and the Sears Tower in Chicago in 1973.

El-Hajj Malik el-Shabbaz (Malcolm X) was a leader of international fame, and his legacy continues to influence Americans today. There have been dozens of famous Muslims in Jazz music, arts, and other entertainment fields, and American Muslim contributions are visible in every walk of life from the most sensitive and military areas to more common jobs.

Presently, there are more than 5,000 Muslims in uniform on active duty in the military. A Pakistani American in uniform, Azhar Mahmood, recently died in the War in Iraq and is now buried in Long Island, New York.

American Muslim women are also adding their names to the list of distinguished inventors, scientists, engineers, etc. Among them is Lubna Ahmad, a young biomedical engineering student who recently invented a noninvasive sensor for obesity and diabetes management.

In the First World War, Muslim states were allied with America, even against the Muslim State of Turkey. In the Second World War, Muslims were again allied with the US, with all their political, economic, and military resources. In the Cold War with the Soviet Union, Muslim states were allies of America. Pakistan, Iran, and Turkey were the front line states against the Soviet Unio! n; they were vulnerable and exposed to the danger of nuclear assault of the enemy. Till now, US military bases were all over the Muslim world, allied with America.

Since 1945, all the natural resources of the Muslim World have been at the disposal of American companies. Presently, only one Muslim country, Saudi Arabia, has an investment in America that is more than one trillion dollars.

At the society level, Muslims have the lowest divorce rate, lowest abuse rate, lowest domestic violence, lowest criminal percentage, and Islam gives a model for an ideal family. Muslims, making up the second largest religious minority of the country, contribute moral values to the society and thus reduces the crime rates. Masajid (mosques) play a great role in minimizing crime, drug usage, and other social evils. Muslims living in America have helped create a bridge between America and the most resourceful Muslim worlds.

In a nutshell, Muslims in America were always an asset and never a liability.

They are always well-wishers and benefactors of America. Any nation that, instead of rewarding its benefactors, begins punishing them instead invites the wrath of God. I request that all citizens of America stand with Muslims in these difficult times and differentiate between lies and truths so that together we may build a better America based on truth, justice, and a Godly American dream.

Jawed Anwar

Editor in Chief

Muslims Weekly

Goffredo

Holy Factual Onslaught! What now, Tommy?

A) Tell him that "Freedom ain't free"
B) Tell him "these colors don't run"
C) Tell him those facts must have come from liberal fact books and real Americans don't need facts
D) Go Glenn Beck and call him a terrorist

This ought to be great...can't wait!

Tyrunn

How can Christianity promote free will when in your religion it was not God who gave you it but the serpant? (Tree of knowledge and all that, I'm sure it's near the beginning of the book for you slow readers out there).

To proffer that religious people are more intelligent than atheists is, well, more than a little dumb, considering the amount of supression that the Catholic church specifically has done towards scientific advancement, for control of it's people in the name of it's faith. (Physics, stem cell, astronomy - all supressed by the church out of fear for losing control).

As a non American, I was brought up to believe there was something called the American dream, wherein anyone from any background could come to America and through hard work find their way and be whatever they wanted.

Now all the world see's is a group of aged, religious bigots who deem people unworthy based on colour, religion, lifestlye and language.

You've become North Korea without noticing it, the rest of the world is laughing at you as you decline into nothing.

Christine El Eris

Thank you, Jawed Anwar, for adding to this discussion.

Regards,
Christine

norris hall

Now you are starting to see why it was futile to invade a Muslim country like Iraq to try and bring democracy, freedom and a better way of life. Bush thought we could make a model democracy out of Iraq.
It was a stupid boneheaded shortsighted attempt that costs America 4000 lives and hundreds of billions of dollars.
Obama was right about one thing.
Muslim Iraq will always be Muslim Iraq

Getting out of Iraq needs to start now!!!

Thomas Watts

Muslim-American;

Your post is very interesting, you bring some interesting facts to the table, but I must challenge you on a couple of points.

What is your evidence that slaves in America were originally Muslim? Muslims were VERY ACTIVE in SELLING slaves to American and European slave traders, but I've never seen ANY evidence that they were present among the sold slaves in any significant numbers.

Also it might be to the advantage of your argument to completely gloss over World War II, since there were significant numbers of Muslims in the German SS, and the Mufti of Jerusalem, the idol of Yassir Arafat, came to meet Hitler and beg him to invade the Middle East so he could kill the Jews there.

http://www.fantompowa.net/Flame/yugoslavia_collaboration.htm

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_grand_mufti.php

"Overall, the idea that any significant number of slaves was Muslim is total bunk. Trying to clearly document that 10 slaves were Muslim is difficult if not impossible. No doubt there were other captured Muslims that never made it to the historical record. But any claim that some percentage of all slaves were Muslim is completely outlandish, with no evidentiary foundation."

http://religionnewsblog.blogspot.com/2007/06/muslim-slaves-in-america.html

Rick

If that list is all "Muslim American" can come up with, then I think it is obvious that Obama's comments regarding Muslim contributions being "too long to catalog" were at best a great exaggeration and at worst an outright lie. Muslim American's list would be about two to three pages. So Justifiedright's post was totally correct when it said Obama's comment was "nothing more than a sneaky way of hiding the fact that the catalog of Muslim contributions to America would probably make for a leaflet, not a book." The truth is that Muslim contributions to the United States up until recent times were miniscule and insignificant (and even that is being generous). And if you weigh their contributions to modern USA against all of the problems Muslim extremism has created for us, then the net effect is clearly negative.

My interpretation of Obama's comment is that Muslims have made significant historical contributions to the country, not that there was a handful of Muslims here and that somebody might have read some books by a Muslim, which is pretty much all Muslim American has proven, assuming his facts are true. Good try, but you really hurt your case more than anything.

BTW, I love the way that the Treaty of Tripoli is one of the only proofs the left has for claiming the U.S. is not a Christian Nation. All it proves is that the U.S. GOVERNMENT is not based on Christianity. I don't think anybody claims the U.S. government is based on Christianity. That would make the U.S. a theocracy. It would be great if the anti-Christian left would actually try to determine what is meant by Christian Nation before they start with their strawman arguments. Goffredo, please let go of your hate.

North Face Sale

Instead of being outraged like they were at Rush, Democrats are lining up behind Byrd to exploit the death of Ted Kennedy to raise the pity factor and pass their government Health Insurance plan.

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